c++ - Latest Version: assorted stuff...
- "Rajiv Bhagwat" <dataflow vsnl.com> Apr 04 2001
- "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> Apr 04 2001
- "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> Apr 04 2001
- "Rajiv Bhagwat" <dataflow vsnl.com> Apr 04 2001
- John Fletcher <J.P.Fletcher aston.ac.uk> Apr 05 2001
- Jan Knepper <jan smartsoft.cc> Apr 05 2001
- "Matt Morgan" <geckofood yahoo.com> Apr 04 2001
- "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> Apr 04 2001
- "Kar Gay Lim" <kagay kimay.net> Apr 05 2001
- "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> Apr 05 2001
- void 127.0.0.1 (Robert La Ferté) Apr 06 2001
- "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> Apr 06 2001
- "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> Apr 06 2001
- Bob Stout <rbs snippets.org> May 15 2008
- Walter Bright <newshound1 digitalmars.com> May 15 2008
- "Matt Morgan" <geckofood yahoo.com> Apr 05 2001
- "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> Apr 05 2001
- "Kar Gay Lim" <kagay kimay.net> Apr 06 2001
- "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> Apr 06 2001
- Jan Knepper <jan smartsoft.cc> Apr 06 2001
- "Kar Gay Lim" <kagay kimay.net> Apr 06 2001
- Jan Knepper <jan smartsoft.cc> Apr 06 2001
- "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> Apr 06 2001
- "Rajiv Bhagwat" <dataflow vsnl.com> Apr 07 2001
- Jan Knepper <jan smartsoft.cc> Apr 07 2001
- "Kar Gay Lim" <kagay kimay.net> Apr 07 2001
- "Rajiv Bhagwat" <dataflow vsnl.com> Apr 08 2001
- Jan Knepper <jan smartsoft.cc> Apr 09 2001
- "Rajiv Bhagwat" <dataflow vsnl.com> Apr 09 2001
- Jan Knepper <jan smartsoft.cc> Apr 09 2001
- "M " <geckofood yahoo.com> Apr 10 2001
- "Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> Apr 10 2001
- Cesar Rabak <csrabak uol.com.br> Jul 10 2001
- Jan Knepper <jan smartsoft.cc> Jul 10 2001
- Cesar Rabak <csrabak uol.com.br> Jul 10 2001
- Jan Knepper <jan smartsoft.cc> Jul 10 2001
- Cesar Rabak <csrabak uol.com.br> Jul 12 2001
- Jan Knepper <jan smartsoft.cc> Jul 12 2001
I have been using Walter's compiler for the last 10+ years on a daily basis (even on Sundays sometimes!) - much more than any other compiler. Virtually all the products and utilities use it (say 10% use the other compilers on Windows and Linux) so, I am a little cautious when switching even to the newer versions. Thanks, Walter, for a solid product. Need I say anything other that 10 years? ----------------------------- Some comments: 1. Doc says that 'mutable' is recognized and ignored since 7.5. It still gives a compilation error (for both 7.6 and 8.0) 2. I have always used the command line versions. My IDE ver is 7.2, your STL testing code uses a later version. When was that released? How can I upgrade the IDE? 3. I have found a bug in ver 8 snn.lib (using the ver from 7.6 with newer compiler works ok : also other models are ok in both 7.6 and 8). I guess you need to check your unit tests for the library. Will furnish more details on this later if reqd. (I have a batch file to switch between 7.6 and 8 so was able to quickly revert to 7.6) 4. STL 'string' did not work: but list, vector, map work great, even with 7.6 and 16 bits. I guess the STL newsgroup will be a better place to take it up. 5. The HTML file supplied with 8.0 just hung the compiler. Even a smaller test file did not compile. I am referring to 'Embed C in HTML'. Thanks also to Jan for keeping things moving!
Apr 04 2001
I'm glad you enjoy it! 1. I'll have a look at it. 2. Symantec's final release was 7.5. Sometimes you can find it on ebay for sale. We are also preparing a CD which will have the latest IDDE on it. 3. Please post a bug report. 4. Yes, please post a bug report in the STL group. 5. I'll have a look at it. -Walter Rajiv Bhagwat wrote in message <9aepm3$2rbb$1 digitaldaemon.com>...I have been using Walter's compiler for the last 10+ years on a daily basis (even on Sundays sometimes!) - much more than any other compiler. Virtually all the products and utilities use it (say 10% use the other compilers on Windows and Linux) so, I am a little cautious when switching even to the newer versions. Thanks, Walter, for a solid product. Need I say anything other that 10 years? ----------------------------- Some comments: 1. Doc says that 'mutable' is recognized and ignored since 7.5. It still gives a compilation error (for both 7.6 and 8.0) 2. I have always used the command line versions. My IDE ver is 7.2, your
testing code uses a later version. When was that released? How can I
the IDE? 3. I have found a bug in ver 8 snn.lib (using the ver from 7.6 with newer compiler works ok : also other models are ok in both 7.6 and 8). I guess
need to check your unit tests for the library. Will furnish more details on this later if reqd. (I have a batch file to switch between 7.6 and 8 so was able to quickly revert to 7.6) 4. STL 'string' did not work: but list, vector, map work great, even with 7.6 and 16 bits. I guess the STL newsgroup will be a better place to take
up. 5. The HTML file supplied with 8.0 just hung the compiler. Even a smaller test file did not compile. I am referring to 'Embed C in HTML'. Thanks also to Jan for keeping things moving!
Apr 04 2001
1. The keyword is recognized as a keyword, and that's it (simply meaning that you won't be able to declare a variable named 'mutable'). Yes, that means it'll get compilation errors. I'll look into having the parser ignore it in declarations. 5. I just tried it and it works. Can you provide more details? Are you using the command line compiler or the IDDE one? Walter wrote in message <9af7gs$u8$1 digitaldaemon.com>...I'm glad you enjoy it! 1. I'll have a look at it. 2. Symantec's final release was 7.5. Sometimes you can find it on ebay for sale. We are also preparing a CD which will have the latest IDDE on it. 3. Please post a bug report. 4. Yes, please post a bug report in the STL group. 5. I'll have a look at it. -Walter Rajiv Bhagwat wrote in message <9aepm3$2rbb$1 digitaldaemon.com>...I have been using Walter's compiler for the last 10+ years on a daily
(even on Sundays sometimes!) - much more than any other compiler.
all the products and utilities use it (say 10% use the other compilers on Windows and Linux) so, I am a little cautious when switching even to the newer versions. Thanks, Walter, for a solid product. Need I say anything other that 10 years? ----------------------------- Some comments: 1. Doc says that 'mutable' is recognized and ignored since 7.5. It still gives a compilation error (for both 7.6 and 8.0) 2. I have always used the command line versions. My IDE ver is 7.2, your
testing code uses a later version. When was that released? How can I
the IDE? 3. I have found a bug in ver 8 snn.lib (using the ver from 7.6 with newer compiler works ok : also other models are ok in both 7.6 and 8). I guess
need to check your unit tests for the library. Will furnish more details on this later
reqd. (I have a batch file to switch between 7.6 and 8 so was able to quickly revert to 7.6) 4. STL 'string' did not work: but list, vector, map work great, even with 7.6 and 16 bits. I guess the STL newsgroup will be a better place to take
up. 5. The HTML file supplied with 8.0 just hung the compiler. Even a smaller test file did not compile. I am referring to 'Embed C in HTML'. Thanks also to Jan for keeping things moving!
Apr 04 2001
Dear Walter, Downloaded 812. My notes: 1. 'mutable': not yet implemented. Atleast, ignore the keyword. A fix for now: #ifdef __SC__ #define mutable #endif 2. 812 'sc' shows wrong version: 8.0B0 -> change to 8.1B2 by patching sc.exe at B0C6 and B0C8. This is essential for me: I am using batch files to switch compiler versions for fallback - and would like to know the compiler version being used at any time. Request Walter to fix such minor irritants. 3. The compiler.htm (800) contained some extranous <code>...</code> which caused compilation errors with 812. Removed those, it now compiles ok. But even the corrected file chokes 800 and the computer with it. (The compiler.htm with 812 is much smaller and does not boast to be compilable!) 4. 800 snn.lib bug seems to have vanished in 812. These combinations give the following results: (bug only for -mn) 760 sc, 760 snn.lib: ok 800 sc, 800 snn.lib: bug 800 sc, 760 snn.lib: ok <--- Older snn, no problem 812 sc, 812 snn.lib: ok <--- works, no need to use older snn 800 sc, 812 snn.lib: bug <--- In short, don't use 800! 5. 812 breaks whatever part of STL which was working. Particularly, use of "__out" as a parameter name in stl_algo.h breaks as the compiler uses "__out" as a reserved word. A workaround: (use before #include of stl headers): #ifdef __SC__ #define __out __out1 #endif All this refers to SGI-STL as downloaded from the digitalmars web site. 6. Use of "string" header causes a compilation error in same 'stl_algo.h' line 200. It looks like JAK was already there and is working on it. 7. Newer IDE must be from 7.5, which I have not loaded - as I STILL need the ability to debug 16 bit apps. So, quick testing of STL using supplied .prj files gets postponed in my case. ------------------ Some of these have already been answered by you. These anyway are my notes during porting. As I could sort out problems with whatever little STL I use, I will continue to use 812 in place of 760. (I had refrained from porting to 800). Thanks for quick reply, though. - Rajiv
Apr 04 2001
Rajiv Bhagwat wrote:Dear Walter, Downloaded 812. My notes: 5. 812 breaks whatever part of STL which was working. Particularly, use of "__out" as a parameter name in stl_algo.h breaks as the compiler uses "__out" as a reserved word. A workaround: (use before #include of stl headers): #ifdef __SC__ #define __out __out1 #endif All this refers to SGI-STL as downloaded from the digitalmars web site.
Sorry This is one I fixed some time in STL SGI 3.20 and said I would post the mods. As you have found, it is a case of renaming __out where it occurs as a variable in some functions. I will get that done but it won't be until after the Easter holiday. John
Apr 05 2001
Jan Knepper <jan smartsoft.cc> Downloaded 812. My notes: 5. 812 breaks whatever part of STL which was working. Particularly, use of "__out" as a parameter name in stl_algo.h breaks as the compiler uses "__out" as a reserved word. A workaround: (use before #include of stl headers): #ifdef __SC__ #define __out __out1 #endif All this refers to SGI-STL as downloaded from the digitalmars web site.
Sorry This is one I fixed some time in STL SGI 3.20 and said I would post the mods. As you have found, it is a case of renaming __out where it occurs as a variable in some functions.
Don't worry! I will look up your changes to the string inmplementation and update them in CVS so they automagically appear in the .tar.gz files... Don't worry, be Kneppie! Jan
Apr 05 2001
2. Symantec's final release was 7.5. Sometimes you can find it on ebay for sale. We are also preparing a CD which will have the latest IDDE on it.
I have seen this said here a few times -- how much will said CD cost, and when is it anticipated to be complete? And, how will we all go about getting our grubbies on it?
Apr 04 2001
The current plan (subject to whatever works <g>) is to sell it for an introductory price of $25. We hope to get it done within 2-3 weeks. We'll have to figure out how to set up an ecommerce site, it's unknown how much that'll take. There will likely be some early hiccups in the fulfillment process, as we have absolutely no idea what the demand will be. Certainly, higher volumes justify a slicker, more automated system. I'd prefer just making it downloadable, as then a lower price is workable, but the size of the system is over 100 megs, totally impractical to download. So, the CD will be the main course with updates available by download. The basic console version will likely remain free. The CD version will include: o command line tools o IDDE (environment) o support for win32s and win16 development o debugger o full library source o documentation in html format o all kinds of resource editors o licensed version of the Microsoft Open Tools SDK and samples o and of course, it'll be collectible <g> -Walter Matt Morgan wrote in message <9agmqg$qd0$1 digitaldaemon.com>...2. Symantec's final release was 7.5. Sometimes you can find it on ebay
sale. We are also preparing a CD which will have the latest IDDE on it.
I have seen this said here a few times -- how much will said CD cost, and when is it anticipated to be complete? And, how will we all go about
our grubbies on it?
Apr 04 2001
I would say I can send you a bank draft of US$50 in your name and you can post the CD to me. Even with the falling Australian dollars below US$0.48, this is still a "good" price. Walter <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in message news:9agus2$v5n$1 digitaldaemon.com...The current plan (subject to whatever works <g>) is to sell it for an introductory price of $25. We hope to get it done within 2-3 weeks. We'll have to figure out how to set up an ecommerce site, it's unknown how much that'll take. There will likely be some early hiccups in the fulfillment process, as we have absolutely no idea what the demand will be. Certainly, higher volumes justify a slicker, more automated system. I'd prefer just making it downloadable, as then a lower price is workable, but the size of the system is over 100 megs, totally impractical to download. So, the CD will be the main course with updates available by download. The basic console version will likely remain free. The CD version will include: o command line tools o IDDE (environment) o support for win32s and win16 development o debugger o full library source o documentation in html format o all kinds of resource editors o licensed version of the Microsoft Open Tools SDK and samples o and of course, it'll be collectible <g> -Walter Matt Morgan wrote in message <9agmqg$qd0$1 digitaldaemon.com>...2. Symantec's final release was 7.5. Sometimes you can find it on ebay
sale. We are also preparing a CD which will have the latest IDDE on it.
I have seen this said here a few times -- how much will said CD cost, and when is it anticipated to be complete? And, how will we all go about
our grubbies on it?
Apr 05 2001
This is why I am motivated to make the compiler available again.
I LOVE YOU GUYS!!!!!
Kar Gay Lim wrote in message <9ahg6m$18id$1 digitaldaemon.com>...
I would say I can send you a bank draft of US$50 in your name and you
can post the CD to me. Even with the falling Australian dollars below
US$0.48, this is still a "good" price.
Walter <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in message
The current plan (subject to whatever works <g>) is to sell it for an
introductory price of $25. We hope to get it done within 2-3 weeks. We'll
have to figure out how to set up an ecommerce site, it's unknown how much
that'll take.
There will likely be some early hiccups in the fulfillment process, as we
have absolutely no idea what the demand will be. Certainly, higher
justify a slicker, more automated system.
I'd prefer just making it downloadable, as then a lower price is
but the size of the system is over 100 megs, totally impractical to
download. So, the CD will be the main course with updates available by
download. The basic console version will likely remain free.
The CD version will include:
o command line tools
o IDDE (environment)
o support for win32s and win16 development
o debugger
o full library source
o documentation in html format
o all kinds of resource editors
o licensed version of the Microsoft Open Tools SDK and samples
o and of course, it'll be collectible <g>
-Walter
Matt Morgan wrote in message <9agmqg$qd0$1 digitaldaemon.com>...
2. Symantec's final release was 7.5. Sometimes you can find it on ebay
sale. We are also preparing a CD which will have the latest IDDE on
I have seen this said here a few times -- how much will said CD cost,
when is it anticipated to be complete? And, how will we all go about
our grubbies on it?
Apr 05 2001
"Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in <9ai4d8$1j25$1 digitaldaemon.com>:This is why I am motivated to make the compiler available again. I LOVE YOU GUYS!!!!!
(sorry for the bad syntax, english is not my native language) I remember a long time ago... This takes place in the famous C_ECHO on Fidonet - way before the Internet was popular! I was a newbie then, and learning C on my own. Of course, I did learn a lot just by reading, but I had to ask a few stupid questions! What's a pointer, why is scanf so bad, etc.. I remember asking a question to which I received a few "RTFM" and "puhleez" answers. I don't remember what that question was, I think it was something about the * parameter in the printf-series of functions. I got **one** message that was worth it. An explanation about 2-3 screenfuls long, detailing why the functions worked that way, how it could and should be used, and a very needed encouragement near the end, a pat in the back that kept me learning. I'm quite sure if I search a bit, I can find the printout I kept pinned to the wall for a long time! The message was signed "Walter Bright". It took me several months to discover who that Mr.Bright was (Bob Stout told me later as I was enquiring about his MFL library). And when I did, I couldn't believe that a person who writes compilers for a living would take the time to answer questions in C_ECHO, let alone trivial questions such as mine. Let's say I was very happy when I accidentally discovered the DigitalMars website! I don't know if this can add to your motivation, but what you did in the late 80's sure did mean a great deal to me. Robert
Apr 06 2001
That is nice to hear that I could have such an influence. If you can find the message, how about emailing it to me? Maybe I can put it in the FAQ <g>. Thanks! Robert La Ferté wrote in message ..."Walter" <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in <9ai4d8$1j25$1 digitaldaemon.com>:This is why I am motivated to make the compiler available again. I LOVE YOU GUYS!!!!!
(sorry for the bad syntax, english is not my native language) I remember a long time ago... This takes place in the famous C_ECHO on Fidonet - way before the Internet was popular! I was a newbie then, and learning C on my own. Of course, I did learn a lot just by reading, but I had to ask a few stupid questions! What's a pointer, why is scanf so bad, etc.. I remember asking a question to which I received a few "RTFM" and "puhleez" answers. I don't remember what that question was, I think it was something about the * parameter in the printf-series of functions. I got **one** message that was worth it. An explanation about 2-3 screenfuls long, detailing why the functions worked that way, how it could and should be used, and a very needed encouragement near the end, a pat in the back that kept me learning. I'm quite sure if I search a bit, I can find the printout I kept pinned to the wall for a long time! The message was signed "Walter Bright". It took me several months to discover who that Mr.Bright was (Bob Stout told me later as I was enquiring about his MFL library). And when I did, I couldn't believe that a person who writes compilers for a living would take the time to answer questions in C_ECHO, let alone trivial questions such as mine. Let's say I was very happy when I accidentally discovered the DigitalMars website! I don't know if this can add to your motivation, but what you did in the late 80's sure did mean a great deal to me. Robert
Apr 06 2001
Robert La Ferté wrote in message ...The message was signed "Walter Bright". It took me several months to discover who that Mr.Bright was (Bob Stout told me later as I was enquiring about his MFL library). And when I did, I couldn't believe that a person who writes compilers for a living would take the time to answer questions in C_ECHO, let alone trivial questions such as mine.
I'm worried about Bob Stout. He doesn't reply to my emails lately, and his web site hasn't been updated in a long time. Anyone know if he's ok?
Apr 06 2001
Well, I'm still breathing... ;-) The web sites have fallen a bit into disrepair, but I've been making slow progress getting them spiffied up. Sometime this year, I'll be adding SnipOS, my own Finite State Machine (cooperatively multitasking) Operating System (FSMOS). It will be licensed slightly differently from my other SNIPPETS code and my old MicroFirm Function Library (MFL). It will still be free for personal use, but will be licensed on a "per product" basis for commercial applications. I've been implementing embedded systems using FSMOSs for a decade or more now,a nd this amounts to a formal packaging of what's developed into a reasonably comprehensive and well tested library of interworking modules. However, as you might have guessed, I have slowed down quite a bit. I'm nearing retirement age and it's been 13 years since I nearly died (the first time) of congestive heart failure.
May 15 2008
Bob Stout wrote:Well, I'm still breathing... ;-)
I'm always happy to hear that!
May 15 2008
o IDDE (environment) o debugger
Are these two items going to be new, or are these the same we had with SC++ 7.5? I have no problem shelling out the $$$ either way, as I am mostly interested in the compiler itself. Besides, I just bought a minivan for my wife for our anniversary, so I doubt she would have a problem with my spending $25 on myself... ;o) Now, here is a good question....With the introduction of Optlink, I lost the ability to use FlashView to debug X32VM applications. Will the linker be X32-friendly? This would be a big plus for me, personally, but not enough to deter me from buying in. If the linker will be Optlink, well, forget I asked..... Another useful question -- I am a bit of a wuss when it comes to Windows programming (admittedly, I am primarily a UNIX geek) and rely on AppExpress to get started. Will the new compiler/IDDE combo pick up a project as such and run with it?o and of course, it'll be collectible <g>
That's always a plus. <G>
Apr 05 2001
The idde will be equivalent to the 7.5 one Symantec offered. The improvements are in the underlying tools. The linker is optlink. I have no idea why this would interfere with debugging x32 applications, perhaps Doug can answer that. The old Zortech blink should still work, anyway. But optlink is a vast improvement over blink. AppExpress will be included. Matt Morgan wrote in message <9aj411$24l4$1 digitaldaemon.com>...o IDDE (environment) o debugger
Are these two items going to be new, or are these the same we had with SC++ 7.5? I have no problem shelling out the $$$ either way, as I am mostly interested in the compiler itself. Besides, I just bought a minivan for my wife for our anniversary, so I doubt she would have a problem with my spending $25 on myself... ;o) Now, here is a good question....With the introduction of Optlink, I lost
ability to use FlashView to debug X32VM applications. Will the linker be X32-friendly? This would be a big plus for me, personally, but not enough
deter me from buying in. If the linker will be Optlink, well, forget I asked..... Another useful question -- I am a bit of a wuss when it comes to Windows programming (admittedly, I am primarily a UNIX geek) and rely on AppExpress to get started. Will the new compiler/IDDE combo pick up a project as such and run with it?o and of course, it'll be collectible <g>
That's always a plus. <G>
Apr 05 2001
Walter <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in message news:9ajfo2$i4r$1 digitaldaemon.com...The idde will be equivalent to the 7.5 one Symantec offered. The improvements are in the underlying tools.
Do you know anyone who holds the source code to the IDDE? Can it be improved? For example, I would love to turn off the "feature" of it adding comments like the "// add your code here" when a new function is created using ClassExpress. Also another thing, when Symantec added Java support to the IDDE, Was that a branch off? You know, that the Expresso thing. Thirdly, do you know anyone in Symantec who might be willing to throw the source code of Visual Page away that you might want to pick it up. There are potentials in merging Visual Page with a compiler and move along with the so called .NET wave.AppExpress will be included.
AppExpress only generate the skeletal application. Do you mean ClassExpress as well? The MFC/ATL has moved on so much that the code generated by AppExpress or ClassExpress may not be compatible with MFC > 4.2. I remember ClassExpress can delete code entered by hand and I stopped using it for a long time.
Apr 06 2001
Kar Gay Lim wrote in message <9akfdb$1gig$1 digitaldaemon.com>...Walter <walter digitalmars.com> wrote in message
The idde will be equivalent to the 7.5 one Symantec offered. The improvements are in the underlying tools.
it be improved? For example, I would love to turn off the "feature" of it adding comments like the "// add your code here" when a new function is created using ClassExpress.
We have the source to our IDDE. What's wrong with "add your code here"? <g>Also another thing, when Symantec added Java support to the IDDE, Was that a branch off? You know, that the Expresso thing.
Thirdly, do you know anyone in Symantec who might be willing to throw the source code of Visual Page away that you might want to pick it up. There are potentials in merging Visual Page with a compiler and move along with the so called .NET wave.
Visual Cafe is being developed and sold by Webgain now. We will not be supporting java. As you've probably guessed <g>, all the digitalmars web site pages are hand made.AppExpress will be included.
ClassExpress as well? The MFC/ATL has moved on so much that the code generated by AppExpress or ClassExpress may not be compatible with MFC > 4.2. I remember ClassExpress can delete code entered by hand and I stopped using it for a long time.
The new IDDE will include ClassExpress too. The express tools are wonderful for quickly generating apps to solve particular problems, but the price is, as you note, limits on the flexibility.
Apr 06 2001
Walter wrote:We have the source to our IDDE. What's wrong with "add your code here"? <g>
Nothing I guess, but it would be great if it could be turned off.Also another thing, when Symantec added Java support to the IDDE, Was that a branch off? You know, that the Expresso thing.
Yes! Actually I think it is part of the latest Symantec IDDE which is not the SC++ 7.50 IDDE.Thirdly, do you know anyone in Symantec who might be willing to throw the source code of Visual Page away that you might want to pick it up. There are potentials in merging Visual Page with a compiler and move along with the so called .NET wave.
Visual Cafe is being developed and sold by Webgain now. We will not be supporting java. As you've probably guessed <g>, all the digitalmars web site pages are hand made.
<g> There is a little difference between Visual PAGE and Visual CAFE although Visual PAGE is/was being sold with Visual CAFE. AFAIK Visual PAGE is completely compiled with SC++... Visual PAGE is for website development it's a bit like many other HTML page development tools around, but Visual PAGE used to be quite powerful when it was just released. I would suspect it went to WebGain with Visual CAFE. I have no idea where newer versions could be obtained. Don't worry, be Kneppie! Jan
Apr 06 2001
Jan Knepper <jan smartsoft.cc> wrote in message news:3ACE0D19.32FB3EB2 smartsoft.cc...Walter wrote:
There is a little difference between Visual PAGE and Visual CAFE although Visual PAGE is/was being sold with Visual CAFE. AFAIK Visual PAGE is completely compiled with SC++... Visual PAGE is for website development it's a bit like many other HTML page development tools around, but Visual PAGE used to be quite powerful when it was just released.
It is still has features that others don't do very well!!! e.g. CSS editing. Boy I love it.... I am still using it!!! I would suspect it went to WebGain with VisualCAFE. I have no idea where newer versions could be obtained.
I guess I should explain what my thoughts are... If I have a couple of million dollars, I would love to get together with you all to do this:.... Love it or hate it, we can't avoid not using Microsoft products. The push lately from MS is the .NET thing. And guess what, the only company that will support C# is Microsoft. Since Walter did Java, I don't see any reason why a second C# compiler cannot be produced. For web developments, you need two things - server side scripting and client side scripting. Since Walter has his own scripting tools (faster), I can see that there is a place for them - create an integrated HTML editor with scripting tools, allowing you to compile or emulate the server side scripts and deploy when built. Anyway, I'll just dream on..... Back into reality now....
Apr 06 2001
Kar Gay Lim wrote:There is a little difference between Visual PAGE and Visual CAFE although Visual PAGE is/was being sold with Visual CAFE. AFAIK Visual PAGE is completely compiled with SC++... Visual PAGE is for website development it's a bit like many other HTML page development tools around, but Visual PAGE used to be quite powerful when it was just released.
It is still has features that others don't do very well!!! e.g. CSS editing. Boy I love it.... I am still using it!!!
Are you kidding me?! Check any of the following sites... As far as there is a 'decent' page, it's probably done in Visual Page... http://www.digitaldaemon.com/ http://www.digitaldaemon.net/ http://www.digitaldaemon.org/ http://www.digitaldeamon.com/ (for those that make the ae / eamistake!) http://www.digitaldeamon.net/ http://www.digitaldeamon.org/ http://www.digitalthunderbolt.com/ http://www.digitalthunderbolt.net/ http://www.digitalthunderbolt.org/ http://www.digitalmilkyway.com/ http://www.digitalmilkyway.net/ http://www.digitalmilkyway.org/ http://www.dutchdaemon.com/ http://www.dutchdaemon.net/ http://www.dutchdaemon.org/ http://www.eternalinfinity.com/ http://www.eternalinfinity.net/ http://www.eternalinfinity.org/ http://www.janknepper.com/ http://www.janknepper.net/ http://www.janknepper.org/ http://www.freebsd-usa.com/ http://www.freebsd-usa.net/ http://www.freebsd-usa.org/ http://www.surfsmurf.net/ http://www.surfsmurf.org/ http://www.virtualsmurfer.com/ http://www.virtualsmurfer.net/ http://www.virtualsmurfer.org/ http://www.smartsoft.cc/ http://www.smartsoft.ws/ http://www.jan.cc/ http://www.jak.org/ http://www.lgal.org/ http://www.lightfeet.com/ http://www.animalaidtour.com/ http://www.animalaidtour.net/ http://www.animalaidtour.org/ http://www.pianoprincess.com/ http://www.lindagenteel.com/I would suspect it went to WebGain with VisualCAFE. I have no idea where newer versions could be obtained.
I guess I should explain what my thoughts are... If I have a couple of million dollars, I would love to get together with you all to do this:....
<g> So would I, but not yet! It's cool enough to be able to run a T1 as service to clients/customers and have the ability to support the Digital Mars compilers this way.Love it or hate it, we can't avoid not using Microsoft products. The push lately from MS is the .NET thing. And guess what, the only company that will support C# is Microsoft. Since Walter did Java, I don't see any reason why a second C# compiler cannot be produced. For web developments, you need two things - server side scripting and client side scripting. Since Walter has his own scripting tools (faster), I can see that there is a place for them - create an integrated HTML editor with scripting tools, allowing you to compile or emulate the server side scripts and deploy when built.
Great IDEA! Now... How do we get the Visual Page source code....<g> Jan
Apr 06 2001
Kar Gay Lim wrote in message <9alc2n$24i6$1 digitaldaemon.com>...I guess I should explain what my thoughts are... If I have a couple of million dollars, I would love to get together with you all to do this:....
Unfortunately, my friends in the venture capital business tell me that there's no money available for anything today. Fortunately, Digital Mars has a very low burn rate <g>.
Apr 06 2001
Hey guys, this branch is getting too deep and diversified.. Come back to root level <g>! 1. The C# idea is not bad, but who wants to follow standards set only by Microsoft - they will change language specs faster than any compititor can keep up with. Besides, they don't want other C# implementations - they want you to USE the language.... If anything else, think about a pure C++ interpreter... so that *existing* code could be utilised easily. Don't know how practical that is... 2. HTML Pages by hand --- I got tired of Visual editors and used a variation of Literate Programming to create the web pages. The method is perfect for 'largely text' type of web-sites such as Digital Mars website. Easier for maintenance - follows Larry Wall principle of going to great lengths of trouble at start to avoid it later<g>.
Apr 07 2001
Rajiv Bhagwat wrote:Hey guys, this branch is getting too deep and diversified.. Come back to root level <g>!
Nag!1. The C# idea is not bad, but who wants to follow standards set only by Microsoft - they will change language specs faster than any compititor can keep up with. Besides, they don't want other C# implementations - they want you to USE the language.... If anything else, think about a pure C++ interpreter... so that *existing* code could be utilised easily. Don't know how practical that is...
I think it was meant with C++ instead of C#...2. HTML Pages by hand --- I got tired of Visual editors and used a variation of Literate Programming to create the web pages. The method is perfect for 'largely text' type of web-sites such as Digital Mars website. Easier for maintenance - follows Larry Wall principle of going to great lengths of trouble at start to avoid it later<g>.
Have you ever tried Visual Page? Jan
Apr 07 2001
Jan Knepper <jan smartsoft.cc> wrote in message news:3ACF6915.DC7CC2B3 smartsoft.cc...Rajiv Bhagwat wrote:
2. HTML Pages by hand --- I got tired of Visual editors and used a variation of Literate Programming to create the web pages. The method is perfect for 'largely text' type of web-sites such as Digital Mars website. Easier for maintenance - follows Larry Wall principle of going to great lengths of trouble at start to avoid it later<g>.
Have you ever tried Visual Page? Jan
Here here. The ex-Symantec news group on Visual Page has only this trend. Most people says, unless you really have tried VP, you haven't really got it to say. I am also developing web server applications, I have yet to product a class library but at the moment, I already have an integrated CGI/ISAM server tools which only requires a C/C++ compiler and no other tools required, not even SQL server etc. That's why I said, integrating a visual tool like VP and with serverside C/C++ support is going to be COOL. Symantec and now Webgain is nearly there - now with Visual Cafe Java and Dreamweaver instead of VP. They require a large download because of JDK's. What if you can have a light weight CGI + VP type of feature for nearly 80% of typical website? That is what I am trying to produce now. I already have a company doing it today but it is not an integrated solution. In the mean time, I still have to run things with VC--/DMC and other cross compilers. Kar Gay Lim Head of Research and Development, Macquarie Medical Systems Sydney, Australia. www.macquariehealth.com.au
Apr 07 2001
I have found problems with both prevalent Website approaches: 1. ASP, JSP, PHP etc: Put code inside HTML 2. Perl, Python etc: Put HTML inside code I don't know which group VP falls in. (No, I have not tried it, but the name surely suggests 'visual' approach like FP, DW etc. The general impression from the discussions is that now VP is dormant. Anywhere I can get the documentation / users manual?) The idea of keeping the two totally separate (code, html) appeals to me much more, so that each can be varied independant of the other. No mixing. I do use the visual editors during the page design, but suck the design in a different format once done. The code is pure C++ based CGI. I guess Lim is suggesting exactly that. Would certainly love to see the approach taken by VP. Many times, we do projects without being aware of the best possible approaches. That is where the opinions of friends 'been there, done that' count! Kar Gay Lim <kagay kimay.net> wrote in message news:9ao8tf$liq$1 digitaldaemon.com...Jan Knepper <jan smartsoft.cc> wrote in message
Rajiv Bhagwat wrote:
2. HTML Pages by hand --- I got tired of Visual editors and used a
of Literate Programming to create the web pages. The method is perfect
'largely text' type of web-sites such as Digital Mars website. Easier
maintenance - follows Larry Wall principle of going to great lengths
trouble at start to avoid it later<g>.
Have you ever tried Visual Page? Jan
Here here. The ex-Symantec news group on Visual Page has only this trend. Most people says, unless you really have tried VP, you haven't really got it to
I am also developing web server applications, I have yet to product a
library but at the moment, I already have an integrated CGI/ISAM server tools which only requires a C/C++ compiler and no other tools required, not even SQL server etc. That's why I said, integrating a visual tool
VP and with serverside C/C++ support is going to be COOL. Symantec and now Webgain is nearly there - now with Visual Cafe Java and Dreamweaver instead of VP. They require a large download because of JDK's. What if you can have a light weight CGI + VP type of feature for nearly 80% of typical website? That is what I am trying to produce now. I already have a company doing it today but it is not an integrated solution. In the mean time, I still have to run things with VC--/DMC and other cross compilers. Kar Gay Lim Head of Research and Development, Macquarie Medical Systems Sydney, Australia. www.macquariehealth.com.au
Apr 08 2001
Rajiv Bhagwat wrote:I have found problems with both prevalent Website approaches: 1. ASP, JSP, PHP etc: Put code inside HTML 2. Perl, Python etc: Put HTML inside code
Agreed.I don't know which group VP falls in. (No, I have not tried it, but the name surely suggests 'visual' approach like FP, DW etc. The general impression from the discussions is that now VP is dormant. Anywhere I can get the documentation / users manual?)
Visual Page does not do any of them as far as I know. It's purely about Visual Design of HTML pages. I think Symantec developed it out of the need to have a decent HTML designer add Java (created with Visual Cafe) to an HTML page.The idea of keeping the two totally separate (code, html) appeals to me much more, so that each can be varied independant of the other.
Yup! Exactly what I do with Visual Page. (when ever I use it).No mixing. I do use the visual editors during the page design, but suck the design in a different format once done.
You'll love Visual Page for this part.The code is pure C++ based CGI. I guess Lim is suggesting exactly that.
Same here.Would certainly love to see the approach taken by VP. Many times, we do projects without being aware of the best possible approaches. That is where the opinions of friends 'been there, done that' count!
"been there, done that" is the dangerous line as many times in the past I have spoken with people that 'acted' like "been there, done that" while all they had done was read an M$ ad... Too many times their advice let me to nothing as when I spoke again with them (after bad experience) they turned out really not to know what they were talking about.... :-( The last 10 years or so I have decided not to listen to those anymore and really have done I LOT better! Jan
Apr 09 2001
A quick search found this link about Visual Page: http://www.irt.org/software/sw016/ Please take a look. - Rajiv Jan Knepper <jan smartsoft.cc> wrote in message news:3AD1AB6E.B707C0E6 smartsoft.cc...Rajiv Bhagwat wrote:I have found problems with both prevalent Website approaches: 1. ASP, JSP, PHP etc: Put code inside HTML 2. Perl, Python etc: Put HTML inside code
Agreed.I don't know which group VP falls in. (No, I have not tried it, but the
surely suggests 'visual' approach like FP, DW etc. The general
from the discussions is that now VP is dormant. Anywhere I can get the documentation / users manual?)
Visual Page does not do any of them as far as I know. It's purely about Visual Design of HTML pages. I think Symantec developed it out of the need to have a decent HTML
Java (created with Visual Cafe) to an HTML page.The idea of keeping the two totally separate (code, html) appeals to me
more, so that each can be varied independant of the other.
Yup! Exactly what I do with Visual Page. (when ever I use it).No mixing. I do use the visual editors during the page design, but suck
design in a different format once done.
You'll love Visual Page for this part.The code is pure C++ based CGI. I guess Lim is suggesting exactly that.
Same here.Would certainly love to see the approach taken by VP. Many times, we do projects without being aware of the best possible approaches. That is
the opinions of friends 'been there, done that' count!
"been there, done that" is the dangerous line as many times in the past I
spoken with people that 'acted' like "been there, done that" while all
done was read an M$ ad... Too many times their advice let me to nothing as when I spoke again with
(after bad experience) they turned out really not to know what they were
about.... :-( The last 10 years or so I have decided not to listen to those anymore and
have done I LOT better! Jan
Apr 09 2001
I had a look and obviously this is mostly true if you compare the current Visual Page (now about 3-4 years old I guess) with the current competitors. Visual Page is plain and simple. It's alomost 100% WYSIWYG as any other HTML designer. I experience it as GREAT that it does not do any Java Script, DHTML or any of that other stuff that makes most browsers crash anyways. It's great that it creates COMPATIBLE HTML that can be viewed in ANY browser instead of stuff that only works in the latest the greatest if you have all services packs (additional viruses) and registry screwers installed. I actually thing, seeing what your background is that you would like a tool like Visual Page for the HTML design of your sites. If you have a Visual Cafe around you'll be able to find it somewhere on the CD-ROM. Also, I don't know about other here, but I personally rather have a tool with an outdated look that works than something with an Office 97 or 2000 look that crashes on me all the time... Jan Rajiv Bhagwat wrote:A quick search found this link about Visual Page: http://www.irt.org/software/sw016/ Please take a look. - Rajiv Jan Knepper <jan smartsoft.cc> wrote in message news:3AD1AB6E.B707C0E6 smartsoft.cc...Rajiv Bhagwat wrote:I have found problems with both prevalent Website approaches: 1. ASP, JSP, PHP etc: Put code inside HTML 2. Perl, Python etc: Put HTML inside code
Agreed.I don't know which group VP falls in. (No, I have not tried it, but the
surely suggests 'visual' approach like FP, DW etc. The general
from the discussions is that now VP is dormant. Anywhere I can get the documentation / users manual?)
Visual Page does not do any of them as far as I know. It's purely about Visual Design of HTML pages. I think Symantec developed it out of the need to have a decent HTML
Java (created with Visual Cafe) to an HTML page.The idea of keeping the two totally separate (code, html) appeals to me
more, so that each can be varied independant of the other.
Yup! Exactly what I do with Visual Page. (when ever I use it).No mixing. I do use the visual editors during the page design, but suck
design in a different format once done.
You'll love Visual Page for this part.The code is pure C++ based CGI. I guess Lim is suggesting exactly that.
Same here.Would certainly love to see the approach taken by VP. Many times, we do projects without being aware of the best possible approaches. That is
the opinions of friends 'been there, done that' count!
"been there, done that" is the dangerous line as many times in the past I
spoken with people that 'acted' like "been there, done that" while all
done was read an M$ ad... Too many times their advice let me to nothing as when I spoke again with
(after bad experience) they turned out really not to know what they were
about.... :-( The last 10 years or so I have decided not to listen to those anymore and
have done I LOT better! Jan
Apr 09 2001
The linker is optlink. I have no idea why this would interfere with debugging x32 applications, perhaps Doug can answer that. The old Zortech blink should still work, anyway. But optlink is a vast improvement over blink.
I talked to FlashTek not too long before they went away. According to the guy on the phone (not sure who it was, don't remember his name), he said that starting with SC++ 7.0, the linker scrambled the debug info in such a manner that the FlashView debugger was not able to decipher it correctly. If I wanted to debug X32 applications, I needed to use SC++ 6.1 with link386 from 6.0. There were a few people who were able to debug X32 apps written with 7.x, but I was never able to make it happen. I would be willing to try blink, if it will solve the problem. Where is that available? (granted, X32 apps are a bit dated now, but there is the infrequent occasion that I get to fiddle with them)
Apr 10 2001
You can try this one. No guarantees! M wrote in message <9auovo$15ol$1 digitaldaemon.com>...The linker is optlink. I have no idea why this would interfere with debugging x32 applications, perhaps Doug can answer that. The old Zortech blink should still work, anyway. But optlink is a vast improvement over blink.
I talked to FlashTek not too long before they went away. According to the guy on the phone (not sure who it was, don't remember his name), he said that starting with SC++ 7.0, the linker scrambled the debug info in such a manner that the FlashView debugger was not able to decipher it correctly.
I wanted to debug X32 applications, I needed to use SC++ 6.1 with link386 from 6.0. There were a few people who were able to debug X32 apps written with 7.x, but I was never able to make it happen. I would be willing to try blink, if it will solve the problem. Where is
available? (granted, X32 apps are a bit dated now, but there is the infrequent
that I get to fiddle with them)
Apr 10 2001
Walter wrote:The current plan (subject to whatever works <g>) is to sell it for an introductory price of $25. We hope to get it done within 2-3 weeks. We'll have to figure out how to set up an ecommerce site, it's unknown how much that'll take. There will likely be some early hiccups in the fulfillment process, as we have absolutely no idea what the demand will be. Certainly, higher volumes justify a slicker, more automated system. I'd prefer just making it downloadable, as then a lower price is workable, but the size of the system is over 100 megs, totally impractical to download. So, the CD will be the main course with updates available by download. The basic console version will likely remain free.
Just a comment: although 300 Megs (the last info I found in the postings about the content of the CD) I would like you to consider that downloading of ISO images of Linux distributions is presently common place. HTH Cesar
Jul 10 2001
Just a comment: although 300 Megs (the last info I found in the postings about the content of the CD) I would like you to consider that downloading of ISO images of Linux distributions is presently common place.
Eventhough ISO images of Linux and FreeBSD are downloadable I do not concider it practical. One of the reasons I am subscribed to always receive the latest STABLE version of FreeBSD on CD-ROM. Once a version is installed I keep it up-to-date through CVSup and just recompile everything once every two months. As a matter in fact, there are a lot more people keeping their systems up-to-date through CVS(up) than by downloading ISO images as that is very impractical for many reasons. An other reason for selling a CD with the complete compiler might be that efforts with regard to maintain and update the compiler might need to be justified. Not everything in this world is for free. People do need to pay their bills and such... Jan
Jul 10 2001
Jan Knepper wrote:Just a comment: although 300 Megs (the last info I found in the postings about the content of the CD) I would like you to consider that downloading of ISO images of Linux distributions is presently common place.
Eventhough ISO images of Linux and FreeBSD are downloadable I do not concider it practical. One of the reasons I am subscribed to always receive the latest STABLE version of FreeBSD on CD-ROM. Once a version is installed I keep it up-to-date through CVSup and just recompile everything once every two months. As a matter in fact, there are a lot more people keeping their systems up-to-date through CVS(up) than by downloading ISO images as that is very impractical for many reasons.
I agree that a lot of persons 'bootstrap' their systems from a CD (floppies in the 'ole' days ;-) and them keep them uptodate through other mechanisms. More often than not these ISO images are downloaded from places where bandwidth is abundant (also if the server provides REGET, helps) and used to burn CDs for others. Practicality is a very soft quality attribute, I'm myself waiting for a easier way to be able to buy a CD than through the present scheme...An other reason for selling a CD with the complete compiler might be that efforts with regard to maintain and update the compiler might need to be justified. Not everything in this world is for free. People do need to pay their bills and such...
I agree that selling CDs is one way to get funding, and even dare you to consider a similar model to the Walnut Creek used for Free BSD and Slackware some years ago: in addition to single shot selling, the subscription model were for a premium fee we could get the updates during a period of time (a year), for example. Best regards, Cesar
Jul 10 2001
More often than not these ISO images are downloaded from places where bandwidth is abundant (also if the server provides REGET, helps) and used to burn CDs for others.
The server supports REGET as far as I know. I however have seen quite a few problems with REGET...Practicality is a very soft quality attribute, I'm myself waiting for a easier way to be able to buy a CD than through the present scheme...
They are available via Amazon.com Auctions. Customers familiar with Amazon.com can use Amazon's payment system to pay for the CD's. If you still don't like that, you can also FAX me your order and credit card data. (Visa and MasterCard only).I agree that selling CDs is one way to get funding, and even dare you to consider a similar model to the Walnut Creek used for Free BSD and Slackware some years ago: in addition to single shot selling, the subscription model were for a premium fee we could get the updates during a period of time (a year), for example.
We have been discussing that and I think in the near future we will get to a system like that. Actually, FreeBSD has had 'subscription' for years. I like it, it's a great system. Jan
Jul 10 2001
Jan Knepper wrote:More often than not these ISO images are downloaded from places where bandwidth is abundant (also if the server provides REGET, helps) and used to burn CDs for others.
The server supports REGET as far as I know. I however have seen quite a few problems with REGET...
Well... we still live in a imperfect wold, isn't it? ;-)Practicality is a very soft quality attribute, I'm myself waiting for a easier way to be able to buy a CD than through the present scheme...
They are available via Amazon.com Auctions. Customers familiar with Amazon.com can use Amazon's payment system to pay for the CD's. If you still don't like that, you can also FAX me your order and credit card data. (Visa and MasterCard only).
Great! Will check which one and e-mail you.I agree that selling CDs is one way to get funding, and even dare you to consider a similar model to the Walnut Creek used for Free BSD and Slackware some years ago: in addition to single shot selling, the subscription model were for a premium fee we could get the updates during a period of time (a year), for example.
We have been discussing that and I think in the near future we will get to a system like that. Actually, FreeBSD has had 'subscription' for years. I like it, it's a great system.
OK. Please also consider havig it published in cover CDs. May bring awareness to the compiler. Cesar
Jul 12 2001
Cesar Rabak wrote:The server supports REGET as far as I know. I however have seen quite a few problems with REGET...
Yup! Will never change... Jan
Jul 12 2001